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April 06, 2001
We were discussing Afghanistan and there is a personal element in this as
a Muslim. I am a Muslim. One of the things that I learnt about Islam was
that Islam removed jahaaeat (ignorance). Do you see what is happening in
Afghanistan as a return of jahaaeat?
Yes, I think they are very, very backward. I think their
actions...obviously, you being a Muslim, they had to move against idols
but not realising that the idols against whom our Prophet moved was
within the Khaana-e-Kabaa. Those idols had to be removed from there and
broken and all that. But that didn't mean that all idols all around the
world had to be broken. And we don't believe in idolatry. That does not
mean that we need to be going around breaking all idols. As long as we
are not worshipping idols, if others worship idols we shouldn't be
bothered. That's not anti-Islamic at all. We should not be. So, it's a
misrepresentation of religion, certainly, as you would agree.
Your Afghan policy over the last 20 years with preceding governments,
what has it resulted in? Three of your biggest problems: refugees, drugs,
arms... the proliferation. Doesn't anybody sit back to reconsider that it's time perhaps to take another look at Afghan
policy?
No, certainly I am very concerned. We are... we are the most
concerned party to whatever is happening in Afghanistan because we have a
border with Afghanistan. We want peace in Afghanistan, certainly. But
when we look at... how to get peace is the question. Is there any way to
bring peace in Afghanistan minus Taliban? No, there is no way of getting
peace. Taliban are controlling 95 per cent of Afghanistan, they cannot be
wished away. You tell me and let anyone tell me that what is the way that
there is another group which can come and take the place of Taliban?
There is no such group.
"I
think they (Afghans) are very, very backward. I think their
actions...obviously, you being a Muslim, they had to move against idols
but not realising that the idols against whom our Prophet moved was
within the
Khaana-e-Kabaa"
Secondly, even if the whole world joins together and wishes away the
Taliban, removes them from the scene, what will happen in Afghanistan? I
would like to ask anybody. I am hundred per cent sure that we will revert
to 1989 when Soviets went. Afghanistan will again be divided into same
warlords, because nobody can control the whole of Afghanistan at the
moment. And, again the same fighting between the warlords. We'll be back
to square one. So now, what I would like to ask you: How to bring peace?
So, therefore, the reality that these Taliban have to be accepted as a
reality, irrespective of the fact that we do not accept their views on
religion, we do not certainly accept their backwardness, their attitudes
against women... we do not accept it. My wife would be really annoyed if
I started accepting their views.
And your children?
Yes, my children also. So, irrespective of that we have to accept the
reality and then maybe change them, maybe change them from within, maybe
try to change them, change their attitude from within.
How many generations of Afghanistan must pay the price?
Well, I'm very sure that if this attitude... if we bring peace into
Afghanistan, by accepting their reality...because I see there are two
options open at the moment to deal with... to bring a solution in
Afghanistan. This is a reality, the Taliban are a reality, they can't be
wished away.
So, my solutions are based on this reality. Number one...option one, as
they call it in the military; option
one is impose sanctions on them, do not accept them, put them against the
wall, force them to change. This is one. And, then accept them. They must
change, force them to change and then accept them.
Number two: Accept them! Accept them as a reality, try to help them in
whatever miseries they are facing in Afghanistan, and then force them to
change. Which option that would one like to adopt? I think the second
option is a better option, because they don't have anything to lose. You
impose sanctions, you impose pressure on people, you can gain from
pressure when somebody has to lose anything. When somebody has nothing to
lose, what kind of pressure can you put on them? This is a realistic
approach that I take of Afghanistan. So, I think option two is the only
way
to solve it.
You've lost...I mean your relations with Iran have suffered because of
Afghanistan. Isn't that a loss for you?
No, relations on Iran, let me say, are far better now than they were
before. That I'm sure of. I'm talking of my government and with me. My
relations, my government's relations with Iran, my relations with
President Khatami are far better than they were with the previous
government. So, that's... there's no... that's not the issue. There are,
they have certain views on Afghanistan, we have these views. But I think
our views are more realistic, taking the reality on ground.
How do you react to Prime Minister Vajpayee's pending visit to
Iran?
Well, it depends on Iran's attitude subsequent to the visit. We certainly
have our own relationship with Iran. If that relationship changes with Mr
Vajpayee's visit, that would be of concern to us. But I do not think that
should change. Therefore, there is no problem. It's a visit by... these
are two independent countries, they want to exchange visits at the
leadership level. We have
no problem.
Pakistan very naturally has an agenda for a neighbour like
Afghanistan. Does Taliban have an agenda for Pakistan?
I don't think so. I don't think so at all. Taliban are accused of
many things, accused of exporting their brand of religion...religious
extremism. But I was with the Turkman President. Now
Turkmenistan...Taliban have about a 650-700 kms border with Turkmenistan.
I asked the President: "Is there a problem on the border? Are they
exporting some kind of extremism, religious extremism?" He said,
"No, none at all". There is no problem with that. So why are we
thinking that they would create problem for Pakistan? No, they won't, I
don't think so.
There are a million madrasa students in Pakistan. Is there a Taliban
army waiting in them in the next 10-15 years?
There are 10,000 madrasas in Pakistan, with maybe one million Talibs. The
madrasas, let me tell you, here in Pakistan, and I am giving this with
full knowledge, because I am concerned about them and I am trying to
evolve a strategy at the moment which I am going to declare within a week
or two maybe, on what to do with them, on their education. Now, there is
a plus side of the madrasa and there is a negative side. The plus side of
all the madrasas, vast majority, this is the biggest humanitarian
activity, welfare activity, that any country in the world can undertake.
One million people being fed and clothed and given residence, board and
lodge, free board and lodge. One million poor people given free board and
lodge. Where in the world is anyone doing it? And the government is not
supporting them. Any NGO doing this? No sir, nobody is doing it. This is
the positive side.
"Taliban
have about a 650-700 kms border with Turkmenistan. I asked the Turkmen
President: "Is there a problem on the border? Are they exporting
some kind of extremism, religious extremism?" He said, "No,
none at all' So why are we thinking that they would create problem for
Pakistan?"
Now, the negative side: They are being taught, given religious education
only. In most of them. But there are a number of them which also teach other subjects. There are madrasas
here, in Karachi, Lahore, Multan, which are even teaching computers. There are computers... education on
software. But since the majority are giving only religious teaching, we
need to now see what to do about them, about this. We need to strengthen
their positive side and correct the negative side and that is what we are
addressing. And, I am sure we will address this issue.
Let me also tell you that there is no military training going on in any
madrasa. They maybe very, very few where military training as such is
going on. This is another very wrong perception of the madrasas,
unfortunately. That's not happening. The keeping of arms in madrasas is
totally banned. Even a dagger, a person with a dagger will be suspended
and rusticated. Whereas in colleges here, and I'm sure maybe happening in
India also, situation is much worse. This is again a wrong perception of
the madrasa.
You wouldn't like to give me a scoop and tell me what the strategy
will be?
Yes, I would like to. What we are doing is, we have formed a
curriculum, a syllabus which contains all subjects because our concern is
at the moment... a religious boy coming into the madrasa grows up,
becomes a young man, he can only become a mullah
in a mosque. We want to change this. We are giving all subjects, as being
taught in colleges and schools, and we have asked them to teach these
subjects. We will assist them in that. So that they are absorbed in the
mainstream.
(Courtesy: The Asian Age)